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Re: [E-devel] website maintainers needed



On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 00:41:42 -0400
Michael Jennings <e-devel@kainx.org> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 12 September 2006, at 01:08:22 (+0300),
> Eugen Minciu wrote:
> 
> > Ruby on Rails is a web application development framework. For more
> > info see http://www.rubyonrails.com. It's like the advanced brother
> > of PHP. The really, really advanced brother of PHP. It's not a
> > CMS. It should allow you to build anything you can think of.
> 
> In other words, Ruby on Rails isn't even a CMS.  It's a way to build
> one.

Read what I've said in the other message. I'm just proposing an alternative. If you guys want to use it, I'd be glad to help.
> Nowhere near what we need to be discussing right now, IMHO.
> 
> And stop comparing PHP to RoR.  Your "advanced brother" analogy is
> fallacious and misleading.
Maybe I should be comparing PHP & Zend with RoR, you're right. Sorry for that. I'm just saying developing in RoR is saner and faster and cleaner then writing your applications in pure PHP or Perl code.

> > You could continue to use XSM. But XSM is not a framework and adding
> > functionality to the site will get harder and harder.
> 
> As I'm guessing you know very, very little about how XSM is built,
> what the code looks like, and what the plans for it are, you are in no
> position to make this claim.  So please don't.

Correct, I'm taking a wild guess. Now here's a 'non-wild guess'. XSM probably isn't as flexible as Rails. I'm just saying that because not many things are. But I'd just like to hear what Andy has to say about my claim.

> > You could use another framework or, gasp, PHP or Perl. It's just
> > that Ruby on Rails is familiar to some people.
> 
> So are PHP and Perl.  Familiar to more people, in fact, probably by
> several orders of magnitude.
There are other issues with PHP or Perl sites. They're, by nature, a lot less secure and many are difficult to maintain. You might end up needing more people to spend time on the website. 
> > It doesn't really matter how many there are,
> 
> Then you can't use that as a point against XSM either.
In that statement I wasn't. I was saying that if we decide to write a RoR application there are people who would work on it. Just as there are people working on XSM now. Obviously, there won't be dozens of people contributing to it just like there aren't dozens of people contributing to XSM at this point. That's what I was saying.

> > 1) A website is not composed just of documentation. It's not just
> > based on text. You can use HTML for that but if you want to
> > integrate the desktop and the website, if you want to integrate the
> > code in CVS and the website, if you want to integrate bug reports on
> > the website and the mailing list, you can't use HTML.
> 
> Of course you can.  FAQ's, bug reports, and web sites in general have
> been working in HTML for years and years.  The question is how the
> HTML comes into existence.
Can you integrate bug reports on the website with the mailing list and the TODO files on the server with HTML? No, you'll have to use PHP or Perl for that, both of which are notoriously good at letting people write unsafe applications.

Can you make the content automatically add or edit site based on email messages? Can you integrate forums and the mailing list like David said? Can you make the website accept bug reports from an application on the desktop that is just sending an XML request to the website, send those reports directly on the mailing list and in the TODO files?

Not with HTML, you can do it with PHP and Perl. And if you feel that you can and want to do that go ahead. Do it. Be my guest. Same for anyone else. I was saying that I can do it with RoR and _I want to_. If you feel like you don't want or need what I can do, fine, no problem.
 
Oh, and can you do all that with XSM? How much time would it take you to code the features?
> > I could go on, but I'll stop here. I may be biased I may be
> > wrong. Personally, I don't think that just the people who are
> > maintaining the site should decide this. But they should all agree
> > with the final solution.
> 
> You are biased.  Everyone is. :-)  I just think you need to be more
> careful about your claims and upon what you base them.
> 
Read those two tags? <personal opinion></personal opinion>. I don't need to be right about everything, but I'm right about some things I have said (the bit about XSM being a CMS). I tend not to explain my opinions too well and I'm sorry for that. 

Cheers,
Eugen
> 
> On Tuesday, 12 September 2006, at 08:29:12 (+0900),
> Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> 
> > at last! someone is mentioning something that we need to
> > address. xsm permissions model. maybe the page just needs to be
> > split up into 3 pages?
> 
> One page that references all the themes, then a page per theme for
> file attachments and such.  Seems fairly obvious to me....
> 
> > but xsm's permissions model is a little painful - if you want to
> > give a new "site maintainer" access - you have to go to every page,
> > 1 by 1, and add them in. it's unmanageable that way (last time i did
> > it for onefang it took me ages).
> 
> Yes, that certainly needs to be addressed.  And as I understand from
> Andrew, it is being addressed.
> 
> > also remember - we likely want to be more permissive than restrictive.
> 
> But it's really the same fundamental problem:  setting permissions
> flags in as flexible a manner as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, 12 September 2006, at 03:30:56 (+0300),
> Eugen Minciu wrote:
> 
> > Yes but everyone is implementing the same things over and over
> > again. Rails has plugins which can load functionality and generators
> > which create code for you and this allows you to reuse other
> > people's code in your application.
> 
> Ruby is implementing the same things that every other web application
> framework has implemented.  RoR is no different than any other
> framework in that regard.
> 
> Michael
> 
> -- 
> Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX)  http://www.kainx.org/  <mej@kainx.org>
> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/       Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org)
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